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Episode 264 - Sick of Clutter? Reclaim Your Home and Your Life

In a recent episode of the Debt Free Dad podcast, Brad Nelson, founder of Debt Free Dad, welcomed Lesley Spellman, a renowned expert in decluttering and organization. As the co-founder of the Declutter Hub, Lesley has dedicated her career to assisting individuals in transforming their living spaces into serene, functional havens. With years of experience and an in-depth understanding of the psychological aspects of decluttering, Lesley has empowered countless people to reclaim their homes and peace of mind. Here are some of the critical insights and actionable tips Lesley shared during the episode.  

 

The Emotional Side of Decluttering  

Lesley began by discussing the emotional journey behind decluttering. She noted that decluttering often involves addressing deep-seated emotions and trauma. Some individuals may struggle with transitions, such as job changes, starting a family, or merging households. For others, clutter can stem from grief, bereavement, or cataloged catastrophes in their lives. Lesley emphasizes the importance of understanding why we're holding onto certain items and the emotional barriers preventing us from moving forward.  

Practical Tips for Starting Your Decluttering Journey  

  1.  Identify Your Why: According to Lesley , it's essential to understand your motivations behind keeping certain items. Asking yourself why you feel compelled to keep particular things can help uncover the emotional connections at play. For example, do you feel guilty about letting go of items gifted to you? Understanding these emotions is the first step toward making mindful decisions.  
  2.  Start Small: When embarking on a decluttering journey, it's crucial to avoid overwhelming yourself. Lesley suggests starting with simple tasks like organizing a kitchen drawer or a cupboard. By breaking tasks into manageable chunks, you can build your "decluttering muscle" and gain confidence.  
  3.  Evaluate the Need vs. Want: Lesley  recommends asking three questions when deciding whether to keep an item: Do I need it? Do I use it? Do I love it? For many, these straightforward questions can help eliminate unnecessary items. If you find yourself holding onto things because you might need them someday, ask yourself if the space they occupy is more valuable.  

Overcoming Common Challenges  

Lesley also addressed common challenges people face during the decluttering process:  

Sentimental Items: Sentimental items can be particularly challenging to part with. Lesley advises focusing on quality over quantity. Instead of keeping every piece of your child's artwork, choose a few masterpieces that evoke special memories.  

Aspiration Items: Often, people hold onto items out of a sense of aspiration, like kitchen gadgets for the perfect meal they hope to make someday. Lesley suggests being realistic about what you will actually use and letting go of the rest.  

The Ripple Effect on Mental Health and Finances  

Decluttering isn't just about creating a neat space; it profoundly impacts overall well-being. Lesley  shared numerous success stories where clients experienced significant mental health improvements after decluttering their homes. Once the physical clutter is gone, individuals often feel lighter and more in control, which can lead to positive changes in other areas of life, including financial health. For those struggling with debt, Lesley noted that organizing one's home can often lead to better financial management. When paperwork is in order and spending habits are mindful, it becomes easier to save money and make intentional purchases.  

Inspirational Stories of Transformation  

Lesley shared heartwarming stories of individuals who have transformed their lives through decluttering. These success stories often highlight the compounded benefits of a clear, organized space—improved mental health, better financial management, and the ability to enjoy hobbies and relationships.  

Final Thoughts  

Decluttering is a journey that requires kindness to oneself. Lesley encourages everyone to accept past decisions and focus on the future. Small, consistent efforts can lead to significant changes over time, making your home a stress-free and enjoyable place. To learn more about Lesley  Spellman and the Declutter Hub, you can listen to the Declutter Hub Podcast or visit their website. Whether you’re looking to declutter your home, improve your finances, or simply gain more control over your life, taking the first step in your decluttering journey can have a transformative impact.  

Connect with Declutter Hub  

For more insights and practical tips on decluttering, check out the Declutter Hub Podcast, join their Facebook group, or explore their membership options through their website. Lesley and her team are committed to helping you achieve a clutter-free and harmonious environment. By taking these steps, you can start your journey toward a more organized, peaceful, and financially secure life. 

Resources Mentioned
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Episode Transcript: 

Brad:  

So, guys, today I have the pleasure of welcoming Spto to the Deferredad podcast. A renowned expert in the field of decluttering and organization, now as the co-founder of the Declutter Hub, Lesley has dedicated her career to helping individuals transform their living spaces into serene, functional havens. Now, with years of experience and a profound understanding of the psychological and practical aspects of decluttering, Lesley  has empowered countless people to reclaim their homes and their peace of mind. So in today's episode, I want you to prepare to be inspired and equipped with actionable insights, as Lesley shares their invaluable expertise on creating a clutter-free and harmonious environment.

Speaker 2:  

You're listening to the Debt-Free Dad Podcast with Brad Nelson, Brad and his co-hosts, the founder of to gain financial freedom.

Brad:  

Hey guys, welcome to today's show. I'm Brad Nelson, the founder of Debt-Free Dad. I paid off about $45,000 in debt, have been debt-free now for more than 11 years, outside of our mortgage. I've also been fortunate and grateful to be able to help thousands of other people save and pay off tens of millions of dollars with the work that we do here at Debt-Free Dad. Now, after listening to this episode, if you want to take your finances to the next level, you'd like to get better results in just as little as the next 30 to 60 days. I'll be sharing some details about how you can get started with that later on in today's show. So hey, Lesley , welcome to the Debt Free Dad podcast. I'm glad that you are joining us here today.

Lesley Spellman:  

Hi, thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited to chat about all things money because it's music to my ears, because decluttering and saving money go hand in hand. That's the ultimate goal, right.

Brad:  

Absolutely. So can you share quickly where you're from? Because I think you know the internet is a really fun place. It can also be a really crazy dark place at times too, but it'll be really fun because you connect with people all over the world. So can you share where you're from and where the decluttering hub is located?

Lesley Spellman:  

Yeah, so I'm in Manchester, England, and my co-founder is in London, and so we work collaboratively online with people all over the world, predominantly English speaking, so lots of people in the US and Canada, Australia, new Zealand, ireland, england and the rest of Europe. So, yeah, we service everybody, and it's so nice to be able to see how decluttering unfolds all across the world. It's quite different in certain areas.

Brad:  

Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. So can you share real quick how you got into this? Like, how did the declutter hub start and how did you get into an area where you're helping so many people go through this?

Lesley Spellman:  

Yeah, well, ingrid and I both have had one-to-one decluttering businesses, and by that what I mean is we go into people's homes and we help them work through their clutter on an emotional level.

Lesley Spellman:  

So we've both had our one-to-one businesses 15 years, and so we go into people's houses, help them sort through the emotions, sort through the stuff and hopefully leave them in a much better state than when we started, and then we spent some time volunteering. We have an association of professional declutterers and organizers here in the uk and we were both on the board of that, so we volunteered for to kind of help. All the professional organizers and the professional organizing industry work together, loved working together and're like we need to do something online, and so that six years ago was when we decided to sort of go into the online world, started out with a podcast exactly the same as you and then we started our membership site almost five years ago. So and we absolutely love it to be able to it's important to us, really important for us to be able to have free content as well as paid content.

Lesley Spellman:  

Because, often, as you'll know, brad, you know, people who struggle with clutter have got themselves into a little bit of a pickle sometimes, and we don't want, you know, our content to be behind a paywall only, and so we were very committed to our free content, which we do every week with the Declutter podcast.

Brad:  

Yeah, that's awesome. So so is this something that you've always done, or is there a time where you also struggled with kind of organizing things and just having things kind of consume your life?

Lesley Spellman:  

It's really interesting. Interesting question because a lot of professional organizers come from a place of pain themselves and so they've gone through that struggle themselves. Ingrid and I don't, so we've always been reasonably organized. Ingrid is meticulously organized. She comes from a background in hotel housekeeping, so you can imagine, you know what that means folding sheets and towels, and so she definitely comes from a very practical place.

Lesley Spellman:  

But the reason why I started the business was really so, basically 15 years ago I took on the renovation of this house that I live in at the moment. It was a derelict property and it was lived in by somebody who had hoarding behaviors. Now when we got the house it was empty. It had taken them nine months to clear it and we're talking very severe hoarding behaviors. And when we started to do the renovation on the property, people used to stand at the gate because it was quite a big you know, kind of you know. It was like an amazing transformation really and everybody in the neighborhood was delighted because it had been a bit of an eyesore.

Lesley Spellman:  

But what I sort of realized is that people would stand at the gate and talk to me about what happened but be very judgmental about the guy who had lived here, not recognizing that potentially as a mental health disorder, and that really sowed the seed to me for, like why don't people understand that this is not something that he could do something about? And so that's when I decided to start my decluttering my own decluttering business. Yes, I do work. Do some work with people with hoarding behaviors as well, but not exclusively at all, and so, yeah, so I always knew that decluttering was going to be an emotional journey for me, rather than, you know, I was going to deal with the emotional side of things as well as the practical side of things. So so important. So that's what I think. So it's actually the same with money, right, brad? You know you need to get to the heart of what's driving that expenditure and driving people getting into debt. So it's so closely aligned, which is why it's great to have this conversation today.

Brad:  

Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. So can I ask? I mean, you've helped so many people over the years with this process of decluttering. Can you share, like across the board, are there some common challenges that most people face when it comes to this whole process of you know, starting to declutter their lives and how you walk them through and overcome some of those challenges?

Lesley Spellman:  

Yeah, yeah, definitely so, the types of things with people that really struggle. So there are obviously people who there has been some kind of transitional thing that's happened and so maybe they have changed jobs or they've had a baby or they've got married and combined two homes, and so we have that side of things where it's a little bit more practical and it's about time and capacity. And then we have the kind of other end of the spectrum where it sometimes comes from quite deep-seated trauma. It can come from grief, from bereavement, you know, or something that's happened, often a catalogue of catastrophes, as we would call them, really, things that have happened in life, that kind of just layer on top of each other and stuff for a long time for them has been a comfort, and so they have. It doesn't let them down, you know. They can go to the shops, buy something, get that adrenaline rush and it's there, albeit quite temporary, and it sort of sits around and it's a comfort until it's not. And so quite often it comes from a place of quite deep seated trauma for a lot of people.

Lesley Spellman:  

But then we have other emotions that are less, you know, less sort of deep really, things like feeling guilt about letting things that go that have been given to you as a gift or being worried about you know financially. Again, you know, if people have come from a place of not having had much in the past or having lost everything, then there's definitely a sense of clinging on to things because you never quite know whether you can buy that again. So we have those kinds of things come into place. We've got sentimentality. People are hugely sentimental and assign value to stuff rather than emotions or people. So I mean I could you know? We've got 350 podcasts about the emotions.

Lesley  Spellman:  

It really is a kind of, you know, a range of things from the practical and the transitional to the kind of emotional stuff and then into the traumatic side of things as well. So hopefully that gives you a bit of a whistle stop tour of the type of thing, the types of reasons that people hang on to stuff.

Brad:  

Yeah, exactly, and I think what you just described. It shows just how you know our attachment to things and even the way that we manage and handle our money. It's a very emotional behavior type thing. It's not just a matter of math and you know interest rates and dollars and cents and you know it's, it's, it's something that we emotionally, as human beings, need to be aware of, because it can you know, it can get out of hand, based on our life experiences and things that we've gone through in life. There's no question. So, when you're working with somebody, what are some common tips you guys share that help kind of alleviate some of that anxiety, to make that process maybe a little bit easier?

Lesley Spellman:  

I think it's really important, first and foremost, to understand that it's never about the stuff, and that sounds quite strange coming from a decluttering world. You know I've already talked about some of the emotional side of things, but it's really taking a step back and trying to work through what it is that are creating your barriers to moving forward, because we all people want less stress, more money, more time. You know. We know what we want as our kind of big picture goals, but getting there, there are barriers in place and so it's really taking a step back and going. Forget about the stuff for now. Let me try and work through what it is that I'm feeling and why. Why do I feel guilty about this cushion that my sister-in-law gave me four years ago? That has been, you know, stuff behind the sofa and I've never used, but I feel this compulsion to keep it.

Lesley Spellman:  

You know why do I keep on buying? You know why do I keep on. You know why do I keep on? You know, in a financial context, why am I continually going to the shops without having a feel for what I need and just buying and over buying and buying things because they're on sale, or bulk buying? You know what is it about my behaviors that's driving those kind of things? And you know, do I have a handle on what kind of stuff I've got in my home? So, you know, because people, because people are over overbuying is a huge one, right. So?

Lesley Spellman:  

So I think, first and foremost, it's about taking a step back from it, ignoring the stuff for now and going. Let me think about my why, why am I doing this and what can I do to work through that? So it all starts from there. And then, once we've kind of worked through some of those emotions, it's about understanding where the most complex places are in your home, because when we, when we want to go on a decluttering journey, our minds automatically take us to the most difficult places. So they take us to our photo collection, they take us to the stuff that has been left behind by a loved one, or you know, you know I'm so sorry if you're lost, but you know the loss of your, the loss of your wife's things, and your mind is taking you to decluttering, means that I've got to deal with that today and we need to kind of say no, that waits for much later, and we need to go through the simple stuff. And so we have what we call our decluttering muscle and we need to start small, break it down.

Lesley Spellman:  

You know people as I say, people I need to do my what we call a room of doom. You know people as I say, people like I need to do my what we call a room of doom. You know, like kind of like piled up spare bedroom that we're just shutting the door on. Yeah, ignore that for now. Let's deal with the stuff that we're dealing with, um, that we're working through every day, and and that's a much better place to start. But you know, start in the kitchen, where we can break things down one cupboard at a time. Understand your own energy. Understand your own. You know time commitments. It's about realism. There are many, many things, but really it's about the emotional connection, breaking it down and starting small. Those are the things that really do make a difference and understanding perhaps where previously, what, what has fallen down, so what processes that you've tried to use before have not worked, and so if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.

Lesley Spellman:  

Let's not do the same things repeatedly and keep you know we don't like to use the word fail, but not achieving the goals that we want to achieve.

Brad:  

Yeah, yeah, that's so good. You, you brought up um, a really big word that we use a lot of time in our, in our membership, and it's your. You know what is your, why, like, what is what is driving you? What are you? You know what are you shooting for and what you? When you bring that up, I think of, like when you say start small. Let's say, I open up a drawer in my kitchen or open up a cabinet and there's things in there. Is there a certain process that I should go through, questions that I should ask myself associated to that?

Lesley Spellman:  

Yeah, so it's. You know, obviously we need to look at volumes. You know there's very simple questions. You know we start with the simple do I need it, Do I use it, Do I love it? Those are the very simple, decluttering questions.

Lesley Spellman:  

You know, for some people that's going to take them 80, 90% through the way, and some people find it really easy to make those straightforward decisions. But for some people everything is difficult and so they've got to run a little bit deeper. And that's where it's about that emotional connection. You know, for kitchen items, is it an aspirational item? Am I imagining that I'm going to use a spiralizer for my courgettes, which is zucchini where you are, by the way? I can't believe I used that One word. That's like a different thing. And so you know, what is it about this thing? Am I just being aspirational? Am I just being aspirational? Am I clinging on to bread makers and soup makers and ice cream makers that are at the top of the kitchen? Because I think, or I want to be able to do that. So you know.

Lesley Spellman:  

So aspirational is a big one, guilt is another big one. You know this nervousness of worry. I might need it, I might need a strawberry huller at some point in my life. And it's about taking back to basics and going what's more important to me, the space or the stuff, and then, when you take it back to that very basic level, you can really go a long way. Because we want less stress, we want more organization, we want to be able to find the things that we you know that we want to find. We don't want to overbuy and spend ridiculous amounts of money on things that we don't need. But that all means that we, ultimately, we have to have less and the stuff that we've got needs to be a little bit more organized.

Brad:  

Yeah, where it always gets me, Lesley , is the that might need, because you know I find that once I finally get rid of the thing, all of a sudden, like a couple of days later, it's like I needed that. So you know I struggle with that too of that might, and that's that you know. So you know I struggle with that too of that might. And it's amazing how much stuff you hold on to and you barely even touch it, if don't touch it at all or use it. And I went through, like I said, when I went through this move personally I started to realize just how much that we had that you just you don't even use and it's just moving it from one place to the other no-transcript.

Lesley Spellman:  

Yeah, I mean there's so many, so many, because really it takes them to that next place. You know it's interesting that we're here talking about the financial side of things, because that often there are two ways that people typically go. Because things like paperwork which obviously is a big part of what you do, brad you know, making sure that people have got their paperwork in order and know exactly that's the first steps, right? You need to know what you've got before you can start doing something about it. And so you know, just going through that, and people start to then look at savings and so straight away it's like now my paperwork is in order and I'm not like consumed by the rest of the stuff in my house. I can focus on other things and I can start to look at utility bills and price comparisons and saving money there and start to assign goals. So there's definitely a financial saving that people make, and it's so exciting for people to be able to A not spend as much as they were spending or spend intentionally, and so we're not like don't ever spend anything again Absolutely not. But everything that we're trying to teach is a mindset change which is going to take you to a place where you learn to appreciate and value what you have and know what you have and then make a conscious choice to buy additional things or to swap things over if you'd like to. But you know, going through this journey of kind of understanding yourself and your own behaviors allows you then to make those financial changes. So financial ones are huge.

Lesley Spellman:  

Quite often people go into um well-being as well. So once the weight of their home has stopped, has kind of dissipated a little bit, people start to look at things like looking after their health, weight loss, you know, hobbies, all of those kind of thing. So, and that's where we, that's what, that's why we're here. You know, throwing stuff into a bin bag is a byproduct of what we're trying to teach. We're trying to get people to their why. What is it? I want to have my grandchildren over to stay every week. I want to be able to have more control over my money or whatever those things are, to be able to enjoy your life, because so many people who are consumed by clutter and it will be the same people who are consumed by debt, it's so. It just pervades your life and it's very hard to sort of see beyond that and just start enjoying things, which is what both you and I are trying to trying to get our members towards right and so um.

Lesley Spellman:  

So yeah, I mean it's, it's huge, but it's it's gradual and we love people to have a gradual journey, you know, and not kind of go hell for leather and try and do it in two months because you're not going to get a mindset change unless you take time to evaluate your behaviors, to understand that decluttering is not a linear process, to kind of work through those bumps in the road that come along, that kind of knock us for six. You know, a decluttering journey is as much about learning to navigate the bumps in the road as it is, you know, to carry on that road forward really.

Brad:  

Yeah, it's amazing how um our, our processes and our our kind of roadmap is very similar, and and how we go about it.

Brad:  

We're the same way in the sense where we we tell people it's like look, you know, this is not a you know, get out of debt overnight type of a thing. This is going to be a journey. It's about, you know, improving your mindset. It's about finding that why. It's about really redirecting your life, and you mentioned such a common thing that we see too is that that ripple effect. Right Once they get their finances in a better place, every other area of their life starts to improve as well, which is really really cool to see. And people start to say, like I came here to improve my finances, but I've also decluttered my house, I'm starting to pay attention to my health, my relationships are better, everything just it's like. It's like you have this level up in your life and it just it's a fantastic place to be.

Lesley Spellman:  

But it starts with being kind to yourself and accepting the things that you will have berated yourself about, and debt and clutter are two of the bigger ones you know it's okay, draw a line in the sand, you can't do much about it.

Lesley Spellman:  

It's understand. It's important to understand how you got here, but ultimately what we're trying to do is move forwards from that and try and get the skills to move forwards. And you know, you've just got to be kind, because so many people you know feel so stuck because they continually feel so bad about what they have done and feel the guilt of that and it's like it doesn't matter. You're here now, ready to make a change, and that's what's important. So you know, for some people in your world I'm sure it takes them years, if not decades, to get where they want to be, and for other people that might be a month.

Brad:  

Six, weeks, two months, you know it depends. And so it's about being, you know, definitely being kind to yourself and understanding that the only way is up, really, yeah, yeah, absolutely no question. Can you share a little bit more on the sentimental things? We have this close attachment or this emotional attachment to items, whether they be from relatives or friends, or gifts or whatever they might be like. How do we, what would you recommend to somebody who's having a hard time with that, where you keep a lot of things Like, for instance, I know for me, like I have, like bins of artwork from my kids when they were little bins of it, cause they, you know, they send all this artwork home over and over and, over and over again.

Brad:  

You know, you feel bad about getting rid of it, but at the same time, it's like, how much of it do you actually keep? So it's it's how do you, how do you go through the process of helping someone who's who's really struggling with something like that?

Lesley Spellman:  

Yeah, and sentimental items are notoriously difficult. I'm sentimental, english sentimental, you know. We we love memories, like the um, like everybody, um, but it's all about quality over quantity, really, and we talk a lot about getting a warm fuzzy feeling inside, and so if you come across something and you're like, oh, I can't remember which child painted because it emotes such a knee-jerk response when you see it, and so sometimes people, it's the passage of time as well, particularly with kids, right, because as you're living it with three-year-olds, five-year-olds, it's so special and so precious to see those things. But once you get to my kid's age, whether 21 and 25 or 28, a little bit less special, but there will still be very special ones. But you can look back and see the five or 10 paintings that they did throughout their career, throughout their school life, which are important.

Lesley Spellman:  

The school books you can take out the ones that are, you know, the kind of ones where it's about them and their thoughts, rather than maths and spelling, which is not that interesting. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes there are exceptions with that. You know, if your child's a mathematical, about them and their thoughts rather than maths and spelling, which is not that interesting.

Brad:  

Do you know what I mean?

Lesley  Spellman:  

Right. Sometimes there are exceptions with that. You know if your child's a mathematical genius or really struggled or was dyslexic and so spelling is particularly special. You know there are always exceptions, but generally in like, particularly with children, it's about, you know, finding where their personality shines through in it, and even with pictures it will be about the ones that have got. You know, this is my mom. My kids will be like this is my mom. She likes to go shopping. I'm like how things have changed. You know what I mean, but it's things like that really, where the little bit of personality shines through. There are so many sentimental things, but it's about allowing yourself opportunity to break up collections, because we see these things as collections and look at every individual item for its own merit.

Brad:  

Yeah, yeah, that's so good. All right, Lesley . So where can people learn more about you and learn more about your membership and some of the work that you guys are doing?

Lesley Spellman:  

Yeah, so, um, so the main place where we've got a podcast that comes out every Friday called the the declutter podcast and it's ingrid and I. We like to make it quite fun. So we have light-hearted things, we have serious things. I mean, today the topics have been quite serious but honestly we have a lot of fun in there. So the declutter podcast come and find us, find us there. And we have our facebook group, which is a big facebook group, the declutter hub community. We're on Instagram and we have our wonderful membership at members. declutterhub. com and we would love to tell you more about it if that's something that you feel that you would need.

Brad:  

Yeah, and that's awesome, and you said you have like 300 plus episodes on that podcast, so plenty of stuff to dive into if you're looking at declutter, yeah Well, Lesley , thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you sharing some insight on how to get started with this process and, like you mentioned, there's such a great impact on your life and making a much nicer place to be in, but also, from a financial standpoint, being able to put more money in your savings account, being able to put more money towards debt. It's a win-win all across the board. So thank you so much for sharing.

Lesley Spellman:  

Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

Brad:  

All right, guys. If you want to pay off debt, if you want to save more money, if you want to take better control of your finances and start seeing amazing results here just the next 30 to 60 days, all you got to do is head over to debtfreedeadcom, click on the green button at the top of the page and we're going to show you how you get started right away.

Speaker 2:  

Let's talk about that baby. Let's talk about your money. Let's talk about all the good things, all the bad things that may be. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that Turn into a debt-free dad. Turn into a debt-free dad.

Brad:  

All right, as you guys know, that sound means it's time for the celebrations of the show, and today we are kicking off with Gina. Gina says I started my budget for next month and I started tracking my spending. Gina great win. Brenda says I have paid off three small credit cards. Awesome job, brenda. Congratulations. I bet that feels amazing.

Brad:  

Esther, I just got my car back from the shop. I paid the bill $544 in cash. I'm so grateful for my emergency fund. We are setting aside sinking fund money now to repair vehicles and also buy a new used car next year. Esther great budgety win. Way to have that emergency fund in place to stay out of debt. Hey, as always, guys, congratulations to all of you guys who are taking a stand for your financial life and are wanting better. Hey, we get that. Getting out of debt isn't easy, but with our help and with your consistency and discipline, we promise you guys, this is going to be some of the best work that you guys do in your entire life. Thanks for joining us on today's show and we will see you guys in the next episode.

Speaker 2:  

Thanks for listening to the Debt-Free Dad podcast. Connect with us on Facebook, tiktok, youtube and Instagram. Just search Debt-Free Dad. If you found value in today's episode, please leave us a rating and review. We so appreciate it. For resources, show notes and links mentioned in today's show visit debtfreedad.com. Catch you next week.

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